Due to security and other logistical concerns the organizers and steering committee of the planned large Giyus protest are looking into a large warehouse in Edison ,NJ a distribution cente the size of 9 football fields (900x500 feet) that can hold up to 60,000 people. The structure has a roof with open walls, askanim plan on encircling the perimeter with a tent and heaters to warm the interior. Nothing is finalized yet, location and time may still change. The previous Location for the gathering was at Brooklyn's Floyd Bennett Field. The date is set for January 7th, 2014 Tuesday parshas beshalach. (Sergulah for parnassah)At the same time, organizers and newspapers affiliated with the Agudah Moetzes of Eretz Yisrael have called out those who are to torpedo and make light of the large upcoming Atzeres and Giyus protest.
"Now is not the time to put doubts into the hearts of klal yisrael when the gedolim are are giving their strength on behalf of the Asifa and fighting for the Torah"
wrote ans editorial in the Hamodia.Organizers stressed the protest is not only against the conscription and drafting of yeshiva boys to the IDF but also to bring awareness to the diaspora Jews of the current onslaught by the Netanyahu Government against Torah observing orthodox Jews. How the Govt is looking to uproot yiddishkeit and the Torah.
One problem with the quote from the Hamodia Op-Ed is that many of the doubters are themselves gedolim.
ReplyDeleteOne problem with the internet age - and one suspects that this is to some extent part of the opposition to it in certain circles - is that it's become much harder for one dominant authority to take control of the message and present it as if it reflected a unified position.
In this case it's well known that RALS and his circle are skeptical at best about this whole asifa effort, and that the American Moetzes is opposed to it (in large part because of RALS's position). As a practical matter, it's possible that in the interests of avoiding machlokis, these people will all go along unenthusiastically, but to present it as "the gedolim" is incorrect.
[FWIW, I am personally opposed to this type of forced and artificial "achdus". My feeling is that people who claim to value achdus should think of achdus before doing things that other people disagree with or object to, instead of just bull-dozing ahead doing whatever they want and then using "Achdus" to try to force the other people in line.]
protesting the draft and not mishkav zachar is like
ReplyDeleteprotesting Pilegesh B'Givah (except Pilegesh B'Givah is infinity worse then the draft) but not pesel micha.
These types of arguments miss a crucial step.
DeleteObviously MZ is worse than the draft in the sense that if the choice is you doing MZ or you getting drafted you should opt for the latter. But that's not the choice here. Here the two things being compared are someone else doing MZ versus you being drafted, and this is a completely different comparison.
The first priority is making sure that you yourself are able to keep Torah and mitzvos, far far ahead of protesting at other people who are violating them.
I don't agree with your analysis, no one is proposing that Haredim be prevented from "keeping Torah and mitzvot" -I am referring to a situation in which those who are not seriously studying Torah full-time are the ones requested to do military or other national service.
DeleteIm waiting for a statement from Rav Shteinman or Rav Chaim Kannievsky Shlita on this matter.
DeleteFotheringay-Phipps
DeleteIf you don't understand that MZnicks are trying to force people to accept it and is thus a shas hashmad (see recent Oregon cake case or the New Mexico Photography case) you must have been sleeping for the past 10 years
Forcing Jews to prop up a state that is in its very essence a denial of the basic foundations of our holy faith, such as Golus UGeula, Hashgochas Hashem, Kedushas Yisroel, Bias Hamoshiach etc, is indeed preventing people from keeping Torah and mitzvos.
ReplyDeleteAs for the old argument "those who are not seriously studying Torah full-time etc", that is precisely what Amalek tried in the midbor....
"The Partial View"
ReplyDeleteDid you do your due diligence before publishing these articles on this topic, by finding out what the Gedolei Torah in the U.S.A and E"Y hold?
Did you try to find out what Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky and Rav Dovid Feinstein hold? Did you find out what Rav Aharon Leib Shteinman and Rav Chaim Kanievsky hold?
If yes, please present their opinion. If not, do you really think you are being responsible and acting with integrity by not doing so?
Its The partial view not the Impartial view. When the mentioned Gedolim publicize their opinion on this matter we will post that too. BTW why do you have no interest in the opinions o Rav Elya Ber Wachtogel, Rav Malkiel Kotler and Rav Aaron Schechter?
DeleteAre you suggesting the others you memtion are in the same league as RDF???
DeleteIm not in the measuring Gedolim industry.
DeleteWhy the obsessive need in some quarters to impose the views of a certain godol as being the one and only?
DeleteWhy the obsessive need in some quarters to drown out the views of most other Gedolai Yisroel past and ybl'c present?
Why do almost all popularistic magazines and websites suddenly take only one side?
Why have some litvisher become more chasidish than the chasidim??
The comment about not being "in the gedolim meusuring business" is a specious one.
ReplyDeleteThe only people who can legitimately make that statement are those who don't care about what any gedolim say or hold altogether, and thus have no interest in who ranks where.
But for anyone who actually cares about such things there has to be some ranking.
I mean, consider the process. No one is born a godol as a newborn child. It's a process, chashuver bocher, choshuver yungerman, magid shiur or rosh kollel or rov, and so on. At some point - let's say somewhere between the age of 35- at which point no one is considered a godol these days - to 60-70 at which point many people are in that category, a person switches over from non-godol to godol. Now how does this work? Does a guy go to sleep a non-godol and then wake up the next morning a godol? The day before a non-entity in terms of godol status and the next day suddenly the equal of any other godol in the world?
Obviously it's a very slow gradual process, as a person himself grows over time, and as more senior gedolim are niftar and place opens up for new manhigim.
So if you consider the level of daas Torah that anyone might have, it's not a black-and-white dichotomy, which a dilineated group of people defined as gedolim who have it and everyone else whose shitos are worthless. There are grades of more and less.
It's therefore inconceivable that anyone could insist that the opinions of every 50 year old talmid chacham with a successful yeshiva should be given the same weight as the most senior and respected gedolim in Klal Yisroel because we don't measure gedolim.
Not only is it inconceivable, but no one actually does. It's just a way to promote a particular agenda, in this case.
Maybe the time has come to measure a godol by:
ReplyDeletehow many newspapers, liberal magazines, websites support him or have been hijacked by his "chatzer",
how many other gedolim he has ignored on crucial matters,
how prominent his picture is (if at all allowed) in the segulah-selling zedoko-demanding rags,
how many brochos (and nowadays klalos) he is REPORTED to have given recently, (to chiloni politicians or bnei-torah respectively)
how many people followed him voting 'al smol shehu yomin'',
how many yeshivos or kollelim his 'bnei bayis' have tried to destroy in recent weeks...